Curse

satanail · Nov 23, 2011, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Not sure if this has been addressed before, but I noticed that just giving my caster hero a focus means they won't attack, and it definitely seems like it makes them constantly cast. I don't know how much auto-wanding really helps, but it seems like for some builds not letting them attack (and thus focus on casting) would be a pretty big benefit.

I found this out because I was experimenting with a Mantra of Recovery build, and noticed that when my hero's HSR mod kicked in, it made the skill recharge at 50% instead of the FC/MoR applied percentage (closer to 30%). So I started removing their HSR equipment.

Are there any major drawbacks to doing this?

Create this · Nov 23, 2011, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I'm definitely going to try this. The only negatives I can think of is the, yes, mods on the weapons.

Gladiator Steven · Nov 23, 2011, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Not worth it.
You're sacrificing mods on the wand that are vital in a lot of hard mode areas.

e.g.: Health mods and casting time and recharge time

hankey · Nov 23, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

40/40 >>>>>>>>>> 20/20 -useful as hell-
but maybe in nm it could be interesting

Kunder · Nov 23, 2011, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Should be easy to test. No skills but flare on bar, # of casts in minute with weapon vs weaponless. I'll get right on it. I doubt it makes much difference though because I know that the AI is happy to cancel attacks when a skill needs to be used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Steven

Not worth it.
You're sacrificing mods on the wand that are vital in a lot of hard mode areas.

e.g.: Health mods and casting time and recharge time

The only mod I would consider vital is +20% Enchants for the appropriate builds. A small amount of extra health is completely useless in most cases and HSR/HCT on a wand only gives +8% improvement to each on average, which is hardly exceptional if this turns out to be a large effect.

EDIT:

# of 1s cast time spells cast in 1 min vs master of damage:

23/31/30 casts in 1 min with flatbow
28/32/31 casts in 1 min with spear
36/36/35 casts in 1 min weaponless

I thought I may have biased the results a bit by using just 1 spell, so I loaded up Sousuke's spell bar with all 1s cast fire spells instead of just flare.

Averages about 15% improvement in cast frequency going weaponless over the spear. I'll give a tentative thumbs up to the tactic for heroes that need to spam spells, aren't recharge rate limited, and aren't in need of +20% enchants, where it should edge out HCT/HSR by a healthy margin.

Jeydra · Nov 23, 2011, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

# of 1s cast time spells cast in 1 min vs master of damage:

23/31/30 casts in 1 min with flatbow
28/32/31 casts in 1 min with spear
36/36/35 casts in 1 min weaponless

Why no 40/40 set? Or, in this case, why no 40/20/20 Enchanting staff?

Kunder · Nov 23, 2011, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Why no 40/40 set? Or, in this case, why no 40/20/20 Enchanting staff?

Simply going weapon vs weaponless cuts the # of random factors down to 1, which is always the way to test things. Furthermore, HCT/HSR both act in different ways from this extra spell casting delay, and different builds would shift the balance between the three one way or another (e.g. HSR mods would have been completely useless in this test because all skills recharge so fast). Given the raw data, anyone who wants to calculate the particular effect on their build in comparison to HCT/HSR is able to do so.

To drill down my previous numbers to an easily understandable formula, it appears that you can estimate that a weapon increases aftercast time between spells by approximately 20% of your weapon attack rate, assuming its a linear curve (I suspect that it isn't linear but exhaustively testing weapons to disprove that is rather futile since no one is running hornbows on caster heroes).

Jeydra · Nov 23, 2011, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Problem with that is that you show the hero casts more weaponless than he does with a Flatbow or Spear, but nobody equips an Elementalist hero with a Flatbow or Spear. Isn't the comparison irrelevant, then?

That said, I did try it with a 40/20/20 staff and I'm getting ~31 casts, similar to the results with the Spear. The hero definitely casts more weaponless. Hmm ...

Kunder · Nov 23, 2011, 11:54 PM // 23:54

I figured spears were the most common hero caster weapon due to being not locked to an element, having 20% enchant, physical (activate MoP), and martial (ignore enemy casting AI). I certainly use spears on the vast majority of my heroes. This test applies to all casters of course, not just elementalists. In fact the effect is probably most important to Mesmer builds using high FC (E/Mos spamming .25s spells also feel the downtime a lot more) .

In theory swords/daggers/axes should be faster then spears, with the obvious drawbacks of melee weapons enticing heroes to move closer to enemies. Though equipping one or two caster heroes with melee might be a cool way to make them spread out a bit more and prevent the entire group from camping under a meteor shower...

nuclear_herring · Nov 24, 2011, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Is there any mileage in testing a hero holding Ashes? Possibly to compare between weaponless and hands full?

Venganza · Nov 24, 2011, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Steven

Not worth it.
You're sacrificing mods on the wand that are vital in a lot of hard mode areas.

e.g.: Health mods and casting time and recharge time

Utter rubbish, GW is too easy as it is.

We use heroes without any weapons of any sort (10 heroes, two people) for the Deep HM, and breeze through it, since no need to change out and the initial area can be completed in a few minutes.

turbo234 · Nov 24, 2011, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Steven

Not worth it.
You're sacrificing mods on the wand that are vital in a lot of hard mode areas.

e.g.: Health mods and casting time and recharge time

considering half my heroes don't even have weapons and i've vq'd and done HM missions easily, i hardly consider it vital.

satanail · Nov 24, 2011, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Steven

Not worth it.
You're sacrificing mods on the wand that are vital in a lot of hard mode areas.

e.g.: Health mods and casting time and recharge time

In my particular case (abusing Fast Casting + Mantra of Recovery), I don't care about recharge mods, so it's not as bad. I don't care about +20% Enchanting either. I would probably go with a Master of my Domain Focus Of Aptitude. All that I'd really be missing is about +16% HCT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

I figured spears were the most common hero caster weapon due to being not locked to an element, having 20% enchant, physical (activate MoP), and martial (ignore enemy casting AI).

That's pretty interesting... Does enemy AI really not use any spell/caster-specific skills on spear-holding casters?

Quack530 · Nov 27, 2011, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by satanail

In my particular case (abusing Fast Casting + Mantra of Recovery), I don't care about recharge mods, so it's not as bad. I don't care about +20% Enchanting either. I would probably go with a Master of my Domain Focus Of Aptitude. All that I'd really be missing is about +16% HCT.

That's pretty interesting... Does enemy AI really not use any spell/caster-specific skills on spear-holding casters?

Correct. They'll put empathy on a spear-wielding-monk with all spells on his bar and never cast backfire or empathy on that monk.

Xenomortis · Nov 27, 2011, 11:32 AM // 11:32

What's the effect of holding no weapon with respect to the enemy AI?